Dumb Question For Our Chemist Members

[one4water]

OK, this is probably a really dumb question but it popped into my empty head and is bouncing around in there.

Let's say I am at my slip and have a half tank of fuel, 50 gals or so. I want to add in some additive, Stabil or Startron or whatever. If I add enough for the full tank, 100 gallons, and then run for about 15 minutes to fill up, will that have any effect on its potency once the tanks are full? Will it blend with the 50 gal and do whatever molecular thing it does but not re-blend the same way when I add in 50 more gallons? Is it any better to add it at the fuel dock when it can mix with the whole 100 gallons in one shot?

I am assuming it does not really matter but like I said, the thought crossed my mind. It's easier for me to add stuff at my slip since I can throw away the bottles right there and not have to worry about spilling since it is calmer compared to a fuel dock on the main channel with wakes and people waiting and usually no trash can right there.

if nothing else, this post gets the post count one higher for Wiley to show potential advertisers.

[Curmudgeon]

Won't affect the potency for 100 gal, but you'll run for 15 min at double strength. Add it at the fuel dock, then add the new fuel on top. It'll mix just fine when you run back to the slip ...

[jigger]

I would imagine that your trip to the fuel dock is at idle. That during that 15 minute trip. That by the time you get there. The fuel in the system that was untreated would just about be used up. There is a lot of fuel in the system from the engine to the pickup tube.

[DFreedom]

While we are on the subject, how critical is it that portions are exact? I just bought some Startron and it said 1 oz for every 16 gallons. Will an extra 1/2 - 1 oz hurt anything. I am not planning on adding (I don't subscribe to the more is better school on everything) more than recommended, just don't want to foul anything up.

[southatlantic]

I am a physicist, not a chemist... Assuming that is acceptable :

1) There is no such thing as a dumb question - lots of things out there are more complicated than they seem at first sight, always better to ask!

2) Yes, it will mix as well, or possibly even a little better. For instance, in the case of Startron, it does not combine with the gas or change it chemically in any way, it just disperses enzymes throughout the fuel and these enzymes break water and other impurities into very small particles that can not only pass through the filters but be harmlessly burned or vaporized by the motor. So, the only thing that makes difference is how well the enzymes are dispersed. A two-step mixing process will be at least as good as a one step process.

[one4water]

I am a physicist, not a chemist... Assuming that is acceptable :

1) There is no such thing as a dumb question - lots of things out there are more complicated than they seem at first sight, always better to ask!

2) Yes, it will mix as well, or possibly even a little better. For instance, in the case of Startron, it does not combine with the gas or change it chemically in any way, it just disperses enzymes throughout the fuel and these enzymes break water and other impurities into very small particles that can not only pass through the filters but be harmlessly burned or vaporized by the motor. So, the only thing that makes difference is how well the enzymes are dispersed. A two-step mixing process will be at least as good as a one step process.

That's kind of what i figured but it never hurts to ask.

Thanks for the replys folks!

[Mickey]

May I ask...

Is there a specific technical reason you're using Startron? What is the goal of this treatment?

Is it something you use a lot or is this a One Time Thing?

What other products have you tried or considered?

I'm not a market researcher, just curious as to how these products get adopted. As was posted earlier, most of these products have been renounced as "snake oil" particularly in the aviation and performance car communities.

But this seems like an enzyme activated biocide. Do you have critters living in your fuel?

Mickey

Edited July 30, 2009 by Mickey

[mcjdljk]

Not much of a poster but have to comment on this. I have posted on THT on similar threads. First I have been involved in the oil and fuel additives business for 20+ years working for one of the largest supplies of fuel and lube additives. In this capacity I have been involved with all the the major oil company formulations and have represented my company at many of the tech societies SAE, API, NMMA, ETC. Specifically i was involved with the formulation of the additve pkg that is used in 70% of all 2-cycle oil sold in the USA.

I have reviewed hundreds of engine tear downs and thousands of lab analysis.

So to answer the original question, First i am not aware of what's in this specific additive pkg. There are thousands of these aftermarket pkgs. in the marine, auto and diesel markets. But, from my experience most provide a lot of claims but little performance. Not knowing the exact formulation but based on experience the chemical will rapidly mix into the fuel. No problems.

As for the physicist above... enzymes are protein oligomers and are denatured in hydrocarbon. His claim as to how this additive works is interesting. This was discussed before in these forum. But hey go for it. I never heard of such talk in any industry forum.

Typically a demusifier is used to accomplish the above.. This chemical will disperse the water and sludge into the fuel where it is carried into the combustion chamber where it is burned or in the case of water vaporized. This works fine except if you use too much additive or you have a lot of water or sludge . you may clog the filters. Most of the reputable additives reveal this and recommend paying close attention to filters and changing often until the system is clean.

My experience, you want an additive buy from an engine supplier or a major oil company. They do the testing and can back up the claims. The experience i have with the aftermarket suppliers and believe me I have dealt with many is they take a very unlikely test result and greatly and I mean greatly exaggerate the performance. Some things to look for... performance claims linked to very specific dosage recommendations and most of all does it pass the smell test ; that is you can't turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.

[TimOub007]

Typically a demusifier is used to accomplish the above.. This chemical will disperse the water and sludge into the fuel where it is carried into the combustion chamber where it is burned or in the case of water vaporized.

I won't dispute most of what you wrote, but this is not correct. I too am in the oil industry, but only have about half the years you do.

If you want to disperse any water in your fuel to be able to pass it through the engine you would add an EMULSIFIER not a demulsifier. A demulsifier works to join small water droplets using their polar properties. As more and more drops come together the water molecule is large enough to fall out of the oil/fuel and/or be filtered.

An emulsifier would work the opposite to keep the molecules small and suspended.

T

[mcjdljk]

Tim,

I stand corrected, Been doing some work on the upstream side where demusifiers are used to drop the water. Chemistry same just adjustment of crosslinking, monomer ratio's and polmer MW... I should have read more closely before I hit the reply button.

Thanks for pointing this out.