Fuel Fun and Fantasy - Additives

[Mickey]

No, we're not going to spill Texaco products all over a plastic sheet and have a party, but I'd really like to know if ANYONE has ANY scientific, empirically derived data about any of the fuel additives, like, for example:

Yamalube Ring Free

StaBil

Sea Foam (?)

Marvel Mystery Oil

Techron

Valvetec

They all seem to be some sort of solvent from the look and smell. Does anyone know:

Basic chemical premise of value? For example, "raises combustion chamber temperature by providing more volatile combustion products" or "detergent package so aggressive and caustic that the EPA won't let us put it in at the pump", "smells like Grandpa's haircut" or "vegan mineral oil product - you can drink it and it's Kosher for Passover"

(Warning - do not drink any of these substances. ^ That is an attempt at humor.)

You get the idea.

Ingredients: Maybe ether, urea, alcohol, etc. Be specific if you know! Guess if you don't!

Evaluations: (A million mechanics worked on a million motors, half of them used Marvel Mystery Oil and one of them wrote the Star Spangled Banner!) You know, quantitative stuff.

What's in gasoline by brand?

We know that all gasoline has additives. What you may not know is that, in some cases, many brands of gasoline are made in exactly the same refinery and an "additive package" of detergents, stabilizers, and yes, ethanol, are added later.

What's in YOUR gas? Why do people prefer one brand over another? Why is it necessary for us all to become "gas tank chemists" when there are very smart petroleum engineers doing all this work for us?

What do you have to say?

(Waiting for the first story like "my mechanic said that he'd never seen a cleaner engine than when he took mine apart." That doesn't count if your engine was BROKEN! A clean broken engine is still broken!)

[denny-o]

Additives are snake oil... If there was an actual advantage to a given additive that you named, then at least one major brand of gas would be licensing the stuff and adding it to their fuel and trumpeting the advantage to the high heavens..

The major brands do have proprietary additive packages (think TECHRON, etc.) of detergents and the like... So, for what it is worth if you are worried about your engine falling into a heap of rubble because you forgot to add that miracle stuff to your last fill up, then buy the major brands with their proprietary package and consider it good...

With a few exceptions, all stations in a local area get their gas from a local fuel depot who has huge tanks of base stock gasoline - I get gas for my plane from the local fuel depot and it is an impressive fuel farm... The tankers pull in and tell the computer to load 5 or 10 thousand gallons for a given station brand... The computer adds the appropriate additive package and ethanol, to match what that brand calls for... The base stocks for regular versus premium are different- premium is not just some stuff tossed into the base stock for 'regular', but is a different mix of gasolines and chemicals to start with... Anyway, I digress...

When I was a boy in the 50's we did not buy additives (no money) ... To get the carbon out we would run the engine about half speed and carefully pour a thin stream of water into the carb, and the exhaust would be black at first with carbon deposits and then gradually clear to just steam... The engine would buck and rattle and snort, and really carry on, but seemed to idle and run better after the treatment...

The majority of additives contribute lubricity to the fuel in the form of a long hydrocarbon chain solvent and (usually) a bit of sulfur, phosphorus, or other antiscuff agent... I did just use some Ringfree on an OB motor that had not been run in 18 years... I did the shock treatment to 5 gallons of gas and ran it through to - supposedly - decarbon the rings... Did it do any good over just running the engine, beats me? (shrug)... Since I could not see the difference, I won't be doing it again... From what i have seen in 50 years of playing with motors - auto / plane / boat / tractor / semi -, you can add a pint of diesel fuel to 20 gallons of gas and get the lubricity advantage at a much better price...

denny-o

[Mickey]

Additives are snake oil... If there was an actual advantage to a given additive that you named, then at least one major brand of gas would be licensing the stuff and adding it to their fuel and trumpeting the advantage to the high heavens..

The major brands do have proprietary additive packages (think TECHRON, etc.) of detergents and the like... So, for what it is worth if you are worried about your engine falling into a heap of rubble because you forgot to add that miracle stuff to your last fill up, then buy the major brands with their proprietary package and consider it good...

> snip <

Great response. This corresponds to what I've read over the years.

Here's a great article on gasoline formulation:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/

From someone who actually makes a living from fuel additives, posted at http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/FuelAdditives.htm:

Which Fuel Additives Are Recommended?

[Merritt Wikle, Auto Enthusiast & Chevron Lubricants Employee - 2000/10/20] The formulations of all manufacturers aftermarket products is very proprietary. So it is unlikely anyone knows Chevron or BG's formulations. Chevron sometimes tests/analyzes selected products a part of competitive analysis. I do know BG44K is a fine product. Further, Techron Concentrate is not just "4% active ingredient", with "filler" for the balance. [bTW filler in gas additives is typically some type of solvent.]

The active ingredient in Techron Concentrate is engineered and manufactured by Chevron. Though we do contract the actual bottling of the "juice" to others; it is Chevron that originally invented, made, and patented PEA (polyetheramine) fuel additive technology in the 80's.

In short, Techron Concentrate is the "original", and still unbeatable fuel system treatment.

In fact, the automakers use Chevron gasoline with Techron for EPA testing, even though we do not market gasolines in the Midwest (they haul from Louisville KY).

While I cannot comment on any specific Chevron Chemical customers I might know of (I'm not in Chevron Chemical group), Chevron Oronite Chemical Division sells very good PEA fuel system additives (not Techron Concentrate, though) to many well-known customers both as aftermarket chemicals, and for use in bulk gasolines. Typically these customers package and market these chemicals, or use them in bulk gasoline.

[\quote]

[petrel]

Seafoam - nothing scientific, but if you are bored have a read: Spring 2005 took my Stihl weed whacker off the wall and fired it up. All it would do is bump and spudder and would not make full rpms. Emptied fuel, added clean fuel and re-started. Still no better. Let it sit a day or two and tried again, still no better. Took it to stihl dealer. Two weeks later dealer had not touched it, so I bitched. Dealer gave me a pint of Seafoam and sent me home. Added sea foam to the fuel, then started it and dribbled seafoam into the carb until it stalled out. Left the trimmer overnight. The next day it ran better than it had in two seasons, and still does.

Did the same thing with my 175 black max this year. I had not run it in two years. I started it on the cuffs and it ran rough and on a seatrial it was sluggish and did not want to turn up. Tried two tankfuls of fresh fuel, but it did not improve. Treated two new tankfuls with seafoam and it cleared up and runs great.

No I don't think Seafoam will preserve fuel, or perform miracles, but I do believe it will break up resin deposits in regular old carbs.

[autobaun70]

I just run ethanol free gas mixed with 2 stoke oil, and the prescribed dose of Carbon Guard or Ring Free, whichever is available at the time I run out. Carbon Guard is the OMC version of Ring Free. The motor is a 2000 model Johnson 115 2 stroke, converted to premix, and still starts easily every time, and has never had a carb job.

Edited July 31, 2009 by autobaun70

[cracker]

I use Stabil...It is both a fuel stabilizer and de carbing agent. I keep my ethanol tank about 1/3 full most of the time and I always add frsh fuel when I take it out... I have never had a problem. Personally, I think some of the additives help retard fuel degradation. I like Sea Foam (although it has alcohol in it), Sta Bil, Pri-G and all the outboard manufacturers de carb solutions... Anything else I am suspicious of, as to its performance..

[mcjdljk]

ok let me ramble ....more so than my last post.

First let's remember that the fuels today are dramatically different from just a few years ago. Specifically sulfer phosperus, aromatic and heavy ends content are much much lower. Secondly the engines have changed compression ratios, carbereration/throttle body injection to direct injection, O2 sesensers and in the case of autos catalytic convertors.

And last ,most of these changes have been driven by enivormental regulations

Also all engine testing is done with fresh fuel with properly tuned engines.

First point.....comparisons of yesterday... ahh simpler times are interesting but not relavent.

Fuel degrades but not as much as most of us think. But fuel stabilisers do work and are antioxidants ,several types are used. Necessary, maybe your call, I don't. Remember point one above, modern fuels in a clean system are stable. I usually have 50 to 100 gals in my tanks over the winter no problems. I do change my filters and inspect.

No issues. Professional point of view most re-labelers don't have enough active to make a difference, oil company products and engine manufature's products are effect if dosed as directed

Disspesants.. see string on this forum "chemists"

Detergents are very similar to dispersants and as discussed above products from the Major oil companys work and performance is supported by research. As a back drop all gasolie sold in the US is reguired to have a detergent. This was a result of performance issues with newer engines were valve deposits were developing followed by combustion chamber deposits. Do you need...well witnessing a lot of the testing this is truly a game to barely pass the test. So for me I add nothing to my small merc my cars but to my yammi 250's (2-cycles) I add ringfree. This is recommended in the owners manual. Making a difference. Can't prove but... I know the stuff works (well documented) and cheap insurance. I burn a lot of fuel.

As for the lawn ower story.. same result could be acheived by using an aromatic solvent point being most of this products will work question is at wat dosage. Spay some gunk down the carberator

Lubricity additives. Since the advent of cleaner fuels premature wear problems were noted on high pressure fuel pumps soecifically on deisal systems and jet engine pumps. This is a result of the almost complete removal of sulfer which provides good lubricity. Lubricity additives today are dimer trimer acids. Oil and such don't provide protection for this type of metal on metal wear. Besides in a car you will plug the cat converter and as with an outboard screw up the o2 senser.

In conclusion same as before, the additive packges discussed here and else where, that are sold by re-labelers might warrant close inspection. I am not going to bash. But being in the fuel and lube business for many years.. I do not use this stuff. However i have and do use major oil and engine manufactures products if needed. This is true for all my cars,boats etc.

Ok done sorry for the long post

[Mickey]

...being in the fuel and lube business for many years.. I do not use this stuff. However i have and do use major oil and engine manufactures products if needed. This is true for all my cars,boats etc.

I have a friend in California who is a PhD chemist for a major oil company. He says that Techron is a patented formula that is recognized as the best in the industry and that Chevron has a major field testing effort to randomly test field outlets to make sure their products are genuine.

He cited BP as one a purchaser of Techron and that it ends up in some formulation in some or all of BP's fuel.

I can see where emulsifiers would help with alcohol seperation and perhaps with the resulting water absobtion. I know from my rudimentary (major university) chemistry classes that alcohol absorbs water and can see where that would be a problem.

Many years ago, I burned some Marvel Mystery Oil in a gas chromatograph and the phosphorous line was off the charts. I like it because it smells great. Something that smells that good can't be bad for your engine.

A few years back, it was all the rage to put PTFE (Teflon) in your crankcase. I guess that craze has died out.

As with many technical products, fuel additives seem to be about 90% marketing and 10% substance. Maybe I'll go get a couple of chemical drums and mix up some of Mickey's Magical Motor Lotion. With a full page ad in one of the boating magazines and a contract with West Marine, it's a sure thing!

Watch for the mushroom cloud!

Mickey

[mcjdljk]

Mickey,

All good points,

Yep, since the government mandate on detergents in gasoline, Techron and one or two other additives dominate the market. Gasoline detergent pgkes went from a marketing tool to a commodity. Interesting is Shell's latest campaign. As for the mystery oil. A lot of aftermarket suppliers were adding phosphorus to alleviate valve recession, following the banning of lead. The adverse affects on catalytic converters pretty much eliminated their use in autos. This was how valvetech started. Engine manufactures solved the problem by hardening the valve seats.

The alcohol debate is another long story, just depends on how much water, get enough water, alcohol dissolves in the water layer, minor amounts of water.... alcohol will help keep the system dry by dispersing the water in the fuel.

The PTFE was added to some extent to help increase MPG. Lighter oils were the end result...5W's

[denny-o]

Notice that the Pentagon bans fuel and oil additives for US Military engines...

If one of those proprietary additives could give a tank or a hummer even a few % increase in service life, the Pentagon would absolutely require its use.. They ban additives instead... Draw your own conclusions...

denny-o