Some info about Hondas and E-tecs

[kerno]

This information is posted for those who can benefit from it and is not to start a fight. It also includes photos, so hang on while we look at some issues to consider. I have a very close friend who runs four RIBs as tour boats on Maui. At least two of the boats go out every day and they get run hard. He puts about 5 hours on each boat a day. Some of the boats run at lower speeds, depending on their size. Others are run hard and fast. As such, he goes through engines. I'm not talking about a few engines either.

He made the transition to the Honda 225's when they became available on Maui in mid 2003. I know they were sold elsewhere sooner, but we had no Honda dealer on the island. When he started running the Hondas, he found he was able to only get get about 2700 hours out the the ones run at high rpm for extended periods. The ones that were running at more normal RPMs lasted at least twice as long and usually lost their lower units before the powerheads failed. If his operation was on the mainland, there would probably be people who were able to properly repair the engines at a reasonable price. But this is not the mainland and the local dealer has a 3 month waiting list for service. If you are in the tour business, you don't have a choice. You just buy a new engine and install it. I personally counted the dead Honda 225's in his yard. There are 15 of them.

He originally had no idea what was failing in the engines, but once there's a hole in the block, and no one to fix it anyway, there's not much point in taking it apart. But as the dead engines piled up, he did start taking them apart to see what failed. The number one cause of failure was the head of a valve coming off the valve stem. Many valves are made in two pieces, with the head inertia welded onto the stem. That may work in some applications, but Honda 225's that are run at about 5000 rpm don't seem to like it. At lower RPM's, with a typical operating speed of 3800, the engines go at least 5000 hours before the same failure occurs.

So, if anyone want to rebuild a bunch of Honda 225's, I know where you can get a deal on a bunch of them. It may look strange to see all these engines and parts laying around, but there is no market for them here.

Anyway, once he realized that the high rpms were killing the Hondas, he switched over to E-tecs. They seemed to work well at first, but two of the four 2008 225 HP engines now have holes in their pistons. Why? You may have read complaints about the BRP fuel lines dissolving internally. Many people, including BRP, denied that there was a problem. But when they looked into the cause of lean failure on these engines, they found the black residue from the fuel lines in the filters. BRP contended that it was from too much ethanol in the fuel. When the fuel was sampled, they found the ethanol content was 10.5 percent. That exceeds what is allowable, so there was no warranty coverage.

It may be that the lines will tolerate 9 percent and come apart at 10 and a half percent, but if you have a late E-tec, you may want to check the engine mounted filters frequently. Also, the 225's use a powdered metal gear on the starter. They are prone to crack in half. When they do, you cannot use a rope to start the engine.

So, what's the conclusion? If you have Hondas, you may want to either run them at lower speeds or add some sort of valve seat lubricant so the continued hammering of the vave onto the seat does not cause a failure. If you have a late E-tec, watch the fuel lines and filters carefully because it may be the lines or at may be the ethanol, but someting is causing the hoses to fail.

I've only posted two picture because the site allows only 500k in attachments. I can post more on request. The engines are in several different piles, so I could not get them all at once. The first picture shows 4 of the Hondas. The second shows a few more along with 2 E-tec cowls and some mid section trim panels.

[emudryj]

Thanks Kerno!!!!!!

Know nothing about Hondas, but have a personal interest on E-tecs...

When that other user brought the hose/ethanol issue in THT, I was hesitant to believe or disbelieve, just because I didn't have all the fact and details, so its hard to come to a judgment.

I certainly trust on your word and expertize, and the fact that this is not the first we heard, makes it harder to disregard...

So I will keep a close eye on mine...

Could you find out if he noticed any difference on the outside appearance or "feeling" on the hoses, after the problem occurred???

I cant believe that such an easy fix to the e-tec problem, is not being addressed by BRP. The ethanol being 10.5 is not an excuse, there has to be some kind of margin of error on the hoses to allow for variances... I'm not talking about 20%, but maybe 12 or 15%....

The only things that still rattles me is that theres guys on Brazil ruining E-tec on E20 or E25 with out problems...

The good thing about this is that comes to prove that no engine is bullet proof, and all engines have problems...

[Flot]

Kerno - one thing you didn't mention is what your friend was doing for engines prior to the hondas and e-tecs?

If he goes through that many engines - it seems like it would be worthwhile for him to spend one or two seasons running engines from each of the engine manufacturers. He would actually have some good real world data about relative reliability, and he could then standardize on whoever gives him the best overall operating cost. Maybe that's where he was going with the hondas and etecs... I'd be curious to see how he'd do with suzuki/yamaha as well.

Interesting about the failures - but 2700 hours is nothing to sneeze at.. that's a solid year running 8 hours a day...

[octavio8]

If I get 2700 hours out of my Honda 150 I'll be a happy man. That's about 23 more years of service. I run at 3800-4200 RPM most of the time so maybe I have to think about repowering when I'm 80.

[dan]

ditto on my etec 2700 hrs would be great.

[KeyPineSavage]

Kern

Do you know if other Hondas (specifically of concern to me, the older 90 and the 130) use the same valves--two part, inertia welded? Thanks

[ScarabChris]

I sure as hell hope to get more than 2700 hours out of my E-Tecs, I'm at 1200 already and they still run like new. Though commercial use does beat them up a lot faster. Most of my run time is at idle or slow speeds so in essence my engines are babied.

It seems to me though that according to the story Kern posted for us that the damage on the E-Tecs is easily preventale and easier to repair if it does happen. But once a 4 stroke swallows a valve resulting in a hole in the block its pretty much the end of the road.

Good information non the less, but I am also curious about the guy in Brazil running E-Tecs for years on E-25 with no similar issues. Is it only the new engines like from 07 on? Because I have 05s and I have no issue with the fuel lines and Ethanol.

[B-Faithful]

Good info thanks for sharing. My builder has a customer with 6000 hours on a Honda but I believe the customer is a commercial crabber so most the hours are at low rpms. Being that I average about 150-200 hours on the motor a year I should be golden, especially since 2/3rds of my hours are at idle trolling for striped bass.

[kerno]

Prior to running the Hondas, he was running Mercury two strokes, both EFI and Opti's. The Opti's had their share of problems, but the EFIs generally ran until they were just plain tired. Trying Yamahas or Suzukis might sound like a good idea, but there is no dealer here for them. When I bought my Venture 34, I was considering re-powering it before I shipped it and thought the Suzi 300's would be ideal. I went to the Suzuki website looking for dealers and was amazed to see Valley Isle Marine listed as a dealer. I called the owner and said "Hey, I see you are a Suzuki dealer". His response was "I am?"

I chose to stay with my Yamaha 225's because he is a Honda and Mercury dealer. Since Mercury sold the Yamahas painted black, he has the ability to get parts for them, though andy at SIM is far faster in getting them to me because my local guy does not stock parts other than water pump impellers and spark plugs. He orders other parts as he needs them. He does not have a Verado certified tech, so he cannot sell the Verado line.

The most popular brand of engines here continues to be the Hondas. Another dealer set up shop about a year ago with the BRP line and that's when the raft company decided to try them. My Stamas 29 had Honda 225's on it and I really liked the engines. I sold the boat to the same raft company and they have been using it for fishing charters. It now has about 2000 hours on the engines and 3500 on the hull. It and is seldom run at high speed, so the engines will probably outlast the boat. The hull itself has not done well in the continued pounding of our daily chop and is suffering numerous structural failures. I'll post another thread on that problem.

[welder]

It is suggested to run , Yamaha Ring free in all 4 strokes unless your fuel has Techroline [ Spl ] in it already .

The new Gas makes BAD carbon build up on the valves and at High RPM's trying to crunch Carbon build up doesn't work very well.

Carbon is BAD for any motor 2 or 4 stroke, Rings on the 2 banger and Valves on the 4.

Dang tree huggers .